tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post610241969087482791..comments2024-03-22T17:35:52.045-04:00Comments on Extra Thoughts: In which I stick my nose into someone else's businessLydia McGrewhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00423567323116960820noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-58065727589671435402012-04-09T11:27:57.840-04:002012-04-09T11:27:57.840-04:00A strong Catholic Church against unholy secularism...A strong Catholic Church against unholy secularism is good for non-Catholic Christians. ++Dolan's stance against the HHS mandate is helpful. <br /><br />Thanks Lydia for taking the archdiocese and Dr.Peters to task here.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-34368645127724352972012-03-31T12:01:34.104-04:002012-03-31T12:01:34.104-04:00I think, Alex, that they are determined to pretend...I think, Alex, that they are determined to pretend that this is all about its not being sufficiently manifest or obstainate and his having no capability to judge her as not internally disposed to receive.<br /><br />That is to say, they aren't going to admit that this has anything to do with their downplaying the gravity of the sin. You'll see that Dr. Peters says he's admitting it to be grave.<br /><br />I share your suspicions that in point of actual fact, despite their protestations, a failure really to think lesbian sexual sin all that bad is part of what lies behind this. That was why I came up with my somewhat mischievous thought experiment.Lydia McGrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423567323116960820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-6695449878183078452012-03-31T09:05:07.500-04:002012-03-31T09:05:07.500-04:00But if openly announcing before that one is living...<i>But if openly announcing before that one is living in a state of sin isn't enough to indicate that one is internally indisposed to receive the Sacrament, I don't know what is.</i><br /><br />A key point. Unless of course Fr. Guarnizo's superiors are are prepared to equivocate on the morality of homosexual conduct. <br /><br />In the Church of England, equivocation about this form of depravity is fairly commonplace. I was under the impression that the Church of Rome is holding the line on this front.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-78967920154487156582012-03-31T08:45:14.403-04:002012-03-31T08:45:14.403-04:00One does wonder what would count as "obstinat...One does wonder what would count as "obstinate, manifest, and grave" in Dr. Peters's book if not this.<br /><br />I'm guessing, based on his reference to Fr. G's not having known the woman before, that he's thinking of some kind of situatin where this person is a regular member of the priest's parish and the priest has admonished about the sin over a period of time.<br /><br />But it's just incredibly rigid to imply that the sin can't be obstinate and manifest otherwise. <br /><br />Peters also separately discusses the idea that the person must be internally disposed. In that discussion he's pretty heavily relying on the difficulty of reading another person's heart. But if openly announcing before that one is living in a state of sin isn't enough to indicate that one is internally indisposed to receive the Sacrament, I don't know what is.<br /><br />Here I'm less sure of my ground in canon law, but I would have thought it would apply even to a sin that isn't manifest to others, if the person makes it clear to the priest that he is determined to continue in it.<br /><br />For example, suppose a mafioso approaches the priest before Communion and snickers to him happily about the people he has had killed and the people he intends to have killed right after Mass that day. Is the priest supposed to give him Communion if he approaches the altar rail?<br /><br />Here's something I don't know: Is canon law supposed to be infallible? I would have thought not. It would seem like an obvious place where fallible interpretation of Catholic teaching is taking place.<br /><br />It may be that we're entering an era not anticipated in the canons, an era in which individuals deliberately test priests and try to "get them in trouble" by boasting of their sin and then presenting themselves for Communion. Was this at all common in the past? Not that I know of.<br /><br />Perhaps canon law on "being internally disposed" to receive Communion needs to be revised or updated to address that sort of situation.<br /><br />But in her case, the "manifest" aspect would seem to be satisfied in any event.Lydia McGrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423567323116960820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-42250183855605938482012-03-31T03:38:35.933-04:002012-03-31T03:38:35.933-04:00It doesn't apply to all the sacraments, but Ro...It doesn't apply to all the sacraments, but Roman Catholic teaching stipulates, I believe, that a person must be in a state of grace in order to receive Holy Communion worthily. So when a 'proud' and strident lesbian shows up and demands the sacrament, Fr. Guarnizo has good reason to justify refusing the sacrament to this woman (and her companion). The only line of argument that could show his judgment was wrong, proceeds on the assumption that homosexual conduct is not sinful. In other words, being in the 'state of lesbianism' does not constitute unworthiness to receive Holy Communion. That assumption seems to be implicit in Dr Peters' censure of Fr. Guarnizo.<br /><br />In any case we should ask Dr Peters, how can anyone really know that a sin is "obstinate, manifest, and persevering"? There is no window into the human soul. A priest must always use his (fallible) judgment about whether a communicant is worthy to receive the sacrament. Of course his judgment is informed by 'external evidence' - i.e. what he can infer by observation of the communicant's behaviour and testimony etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-13538767011808936622012-03-27T10:40:57.748-04:002012-03-27T10:40:57.748-04:00Why thank you, Ma'am, for this excellent summa...Why thank you, Ma'am, for this excellent summation of what Traditional Catholics are thinking about this mess. <br /><br />As a personal aside--if things like this are part of the reason you are not Catholic, consider how hard it is to remain Catholic with this sort of thing being common! Sometimes it's all I can do not to bolt for the Orthodox.ignorant redneckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15718783732896413346noreply@blogger.com