tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post1332807619339170905..comments2024-02-29T18:12:52.050-05:00Comments on Extra Thoughts: Well, and here's a nasty tempest in a nasty teapotLydia McGrewhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00423567323116960820noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-52904597779809541582012-02-29T14:22:06.387-05:002012-02-29T14:22:06.387-05:00Since I am apparently the only person to whose cri...Since I am apparently the only person to whose criticism Leiter replied, albeit flippantly as it appears that is his custom, you may want to read the relevant blogposts: <br /><br />http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2011/09/few-point-for-occasion-of-atzmon-saga.html<br /><br />and my reply, which he ignored:<br /><br />http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2011/09/reply-to-brian-leiter.html<br /><br />I also wrote this about Atzmon's "philosophizing," that you may find interesting, or not.<br /><br />http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2011/11/commentary-on-philosophical-thinking-of.htmlJSFhttp://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-14008192762699087362012-01-18T15:22:31.616-05:002012-01-18T15:22:31.616-05:00Thanks, Jeff. I'm also working on a brief foll...Thanks, Jeff. I'm also working on a brief follow-up in which I bring into a main post some of this info. I found about the Holocaust denial of this Atzmon guy. Maybe Mearsheimer needs to learn to use what Yousefzadeh calls "rhymes-with-shmoogle."Lydia McGrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423567323116960820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-700960435974479852012-01-18T14:51:18.741-05:002012-01-18T14:51:18.741-05:00Here is another good update on Mearsheimer:
http:...Here is another good update on Mearsheimer:<br /><br />http://www.tabletmag.com/arts-and-culture/books/88397/framed-2/?all=1 <br />I just wish the U of C would see fit to end their relationship with him -- I feel like his presence on campus taints my degree.Jeff Singernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-47809924077279955892012-01-10T22:30:09.666-05:002012-01-10T22:30:09.666-05:00Yup. Here's Mearsheimer:
"I cannot find ...Yup. Here's Mearsheimer:<br /><br />"I cannot find evidence in his book or in his other writings that indicate he 'traffics in Holocaust denial.'"<br /><br />http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/09/25/mearsheimer_responds_to_goldbergs_latest_smear<br /><br />Maybe he needed to get some help looking. If this was all so difficult for Mearsheimer, I do note that one of his commentators provides the relevant link and quotes the "If the Nazis ran a death camp" comment.Lydia McGrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423567323116960820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-91439347928962344702012-01-10T22:19:22.194-05:002012-01-10T22:19:22.194-05:00On the subject of the main post, here is a useful ...On the subject of the main post, here is a useful article by Pejman Yousefzadeh on Atzmon: <br /><br />http://www.chequerboard.org/2011/09/john-mearsheimer-further-beclowns-self-film-at-eleven/<br /><br />Yousefzadeh provides information of yet further evidence of Holocaust denial by Atzmon. Following some links, I found this:<br /><br />"It took me years to accept that the Holocaust narrative, in its current form, doesn’t make any historical sense. Here is just one little anecdote to elaborate on:<br /><br />If, for instance, the Nazis wanted the Jews out of their Reich (Judenrein - free of Jews), or even dead, as the Zionist narrative insists, how come they marched hundreds of thousands of them back into the Reich at the end of the war? I have been concerned with this simple question for more than a while.<br /><br />[snip]<br /><br />I am left puzzled here; if the Nazis ran a death factory in Auschwitz-Birkenau, why would the Jewish prisoners join them at the end of the war? Why didn’t the Jews wait for their Red liberators?<br /><br />I think that 65 years after the liberation of Auschwitz, we must be entitled to start to ask the necessary questions. We should ask for some conclusive historical evidence and arguments rather than follow a religious narrative that is sustained by political pressure and laws."<br /><br />Is that enough? It darned well should be. Please note the "If the Nazis ran a death factory..."<br /><br />The link to the entire post is here. <br /><br />http://dissidentvoice.org/2010/03/truth-history-and-integrity/<br /><br />Mearsheimer, I have read, has denied that Atzmon anywhere "traffics in Holocaust denial."Lydia McGrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423567323116960820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-83496289876080580002012-01-10T21:15:06.571-05:002012-01-10T21:15:06.571-05:00Anon 2, the meaning of "optimal" in your...Anon 2, the meaning of "optimal" in your reference quote is wholly indeterminate. I suspect (knowing a thing about math and taxes) that it is insufficiently clarified in the paper itself, though I admit that I don't have direct knowledge and I could be wrong - maybe they define optimal in sufficient detail for the meaning to be determinate. If they do, though, would still remain likely that their definition of 'optimal', being scholarly and precise, is then NOT what we ordinary mortals mean by it, something like "society would be best off at at that level". It is virtually impossible that a precise, scholarly definition means this, because the fields of economics, politics, and business practices simply are not understood well enough for such a resolution. <br /><br />Probably, the paper is nice sounding but useless and unsupportable where it states things that could be practical (were they provably true), and valid, verifiable, scientific only where it states things that in the long run turn out to be tautological. Something like: if rich people paid more taxes, there wouldn't be the wealth disparity that we have now. Yup, Chief, you really know how to say it! Monopods get into politics.Tonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-406804427816341022012-01-10T17:27:41.282-05:002012-01-10T17:27:41.282-05:00Anon #2,
You say, "While "confiscate&qu...Anon #2,<br /><br />You say, "While "confiscate" and "wealth" are imprecise, the broader concept that top earners are way under taxed is pretty mainstream."<br /><br />What makes you think Leiter was being imprecise -- the guy loves Marx and thinks the rich own too much wealth (which is a different question, although related, to how much we should tax their income)?<br /><br />Again, for an analytic philosopher, the guy seems to know not the first thing about basic human behavior or economics, not to mention debates within the field about the optimal income tax rate (or whether we should use a flat tax or a consumption tax).<br /><br />In other words, he's a fraud.Jeff Singernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-80420973902090647022012-01-10T15:27:53.182-05:002012-01-10T15:27:53.182-05:00Anon #2, the appearance of such an idea in an acad...Anon #2, the appearance of such an idea in an academic paper neither makes it mainstream nor supports John H's implication that only "conservatives and libertarians" would oppose it. After all, Leiter himself complains about the fact that it doesn't seem to be a live idea in America today. But perhaps he puts that down to some kind of conspiracy, who knows.Lydia McGrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423567323116960820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-64586866451737419262012-01-10T13:47:09.826-05:002012-01-10T13:47:09.826-05:00As both Jeff S. and Lydia have made comments on Le...As both Jeff S. and Lydia have made comments on Leiter's 75% suggestion, this may be relevant. While "confiscate" and "wealth" are imprecise, the broader concept that top earners are way under taxed is pretty mainstream. This paper recently came out and Leiter may have been thinking of it:<br /><br />"As an<br />illustration using the different elasticity estimates of Gruber and Saez (2002) for high<br />income earners mentioned above, the optimal top tax rate using the current taxable<br />income base (and ignoring tax externalities) would be *=1/(1+1.5 x 0.57)=54 percent<br />9<br />while the optimal top tax rate using a broader income base with no deductions would be<br />*=1/(1+1.5 x 0.17)=80 percent. Taking as fixed state and payroll tax rates, such rates<br />correspond to top federal income tax rates equal to 48 and 76 percent, respectively.<br />Although considerable uncertainty remains in the estimation of the long-run behavioral<br />responses to top tax rates (Saez, Slemrod, Giertz, 2011), the elasticity e=0.57 is a<br />conservative upper bound estimate of the distortion of top U.S. tax rates. Therefore, the<br />case for higher rates at the top appears robust in the context of this model."<br /><br />http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~saez/diamond-saezJEP11opttax.pdfAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-37788523164204455412012-01-10T09:18:17.374-05:002012-01-10T09:18:17.374-05:00Here is a link on Toaff's book. It mentions th...Here is a link on Toaff's book. It mentions the bit about confessions extracted under torture. http://www.haaretz.com/news/mks-demand-the-author-of-blood-libel-book-be-prosecuted-1.214071Lydia McGrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423567323116960820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-20220458277347016382012-01-10T09:17:43.692-05:002012-01-10T09:17:43.692-05:00John H. ,see my comments to Aaron. Atzmon's bo...John H. ,see my comments to Aaron. Atzmon's book does not give arguments supporting the blood libel. He simply, briefly implies that it was justified. His further defense of himself tells us where he is getting that.<br /><br />Leiter's proposal that we confiscate 75% of the wealth of the the "richest people" in America can hardly be regarded as merely "not libertarian or conservative." It's, let's just say, _considerably_ to the left even of what the center-left in America proposes. But, y'know, fine, if you think it's a legitimate proposal and can't for the life of you see what's ridiculous about it, that's your prerogative. I think we'll leave it at that.Lydia McGrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423567323116960820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-3085204388318119872012-01-10T09:12:20.271-05:002012-01-10T09:12:20.271-05:00Well, these are interesting comments I'm getti...Well, these are interesting comments I'm getting. Aaron thinks perhaps a book about the iniquities of the Jews by an undeniable anti-semite might deserve *an endorsement*, a positive blurb on the back cover, from a respected academic, because "anti-semitic themes often carry a lot of truth." And he'd prefer Gilad Atmon (whom he's willing to grant is an outright anti-semite) to Alan Dershowitz.<br /><br />Aaron, the "good historical research" in question to which Atzmon alludes is the book by Ariel Toaff. Toaff not only halted production of the book but said that he had _not_ intended to argue that Jews killed children to make matzos out of their blood. Whether he really did mean to argue this and is lying to get himself off the hook is an interesting question, as I haven't read the book. However, that is _precisely_ what Atzmon implies that Toaff's book supports. Moreover, given that Toaff's book evidently involves endorsing the reliability of confession under torture, and given its universal denunciation as *poor* scholarship by historians, I hardly think the entire subject needs to be reopened on the basis of Atzmon's allusion to Toaff.<br /><br />As for your claim that Atzmon doesn't deny that the Holocaust happened, well, there you go. That's exactly what I'm getting at in the main post about squirrelly post-modernism. Please notice what Atzmon says in his own "defense." He does _not_ say, clearly and like a man: "Yes, as an objective fact, this really happened." On the contrary, he gives us all this baloney sausage to the effect that he _neither affirms nor denies_ any historical aspect of the Holocaust. Well, that's reassuring.<br /><br />Please. You're making excuses for him. In fact, you're making excuses for him much as Leiter does.<br /><br />To me there is something exceedingly distasteful about a reaction like this. Here's this book, obviously by a nutcase, and y'all's first reaction is, "Oh, well, I don't know. _If_ he's defending good scholarship, maybe we should listen to him. And _if_ his book is good (despite the fact that he's a total anti-semite) then maybe it was okay for Mearsheimer to give it an endorsement." It's all this smarmy hypothetical stuff. Good grief. Would you do that if somebody wrote a book alleging that, say, homosexual groups regularly meet with aliens from outer space to sacrifice Christian children and use their blood in rituals? "Well, you never know. If it's good scholarship, maybe we should endorse it."Lydia McGrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423567323116960820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-80944135888061509382012-01-10T02:11:36.235-05:002012-01-10T02:11:36.235-05:00Two thoughts:
(1) Where is the criticism of the co...Two thoughts:<br />(1) Where is the criticism of the content of the book? One can't simply *assume* there is nothing to the blood libel; surely there must be some kind of criticism of his arguments, even if that argument is simply that we would expect to see evidence of it that we do not see.<br /><br />(2) It is unexplained to me what is so ridiculous about Leiter's "Marxist" comment. I mean, when you consider that the bottom 80% of Americans own 15% of the wealth and the top 1% own 35%, there is some sense to what he saying - its not fair to accuse everyone who thinks Marx has a point and is not a libertarian or "conservative" (what is so Burkean about free markets?) is an outright commie.<br /><br />Now, I'm not saying this because I am a huge fan of Leiter. Leiter vehemently hates religion and regularly bashes conservatives as moronic. That doesn't mean we should be as senseless in our own responses.John H.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-61194858397060655622012-01-10T01:39:05.028-05:002012-01-10T01:39:05.028-05:00Lydia, my point is that "anti-Semitic themes&...Lydia, my point is that "anti-Semitic themes" often contain a lot of truth, specifically about their subject (Jews). The same is true of all "anti-_____ themes" in general. Your enemies will tell you truths that your friends are too polite to utter. Why not listen to your enemies?<br /><br />As far as I know, Atzmon never said that any accusations of blood libel were true. He might be referring to claims that they can be traced to an allegedly true story from the Middle Ages: not blood libel, but involving a mentally disturbed Jewish father's "sacrifice" of his own son. (I think I read about this from a much more repulsive Jewish anti-Semite, Israel Shamir.) If Atzmon is defending good, scholarly research on the blood libel, so what?<br /><br />Similarly, he's not denying that there was a shoah and that millions of Jews were killed. He's questioning the <i>narrative</i>, which is just the pomos' word for "story." This questioning is not at the level to exclude Atzmon from discourse, the way it might a Holocaust denier. He seems like a typical example of an honest, intelligent adolescent.<br /><br />Just as sort of a personal confession of faith, I'll take Atzmon over Dershowitz any day.Aaronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-2235446634811556502012-01-09T17:35:52.534-05:002012-01-09T17:35:52.534-05:00To say that Brian Leiter is a leftist is pretty mu...To say that Brian Leiter is a leftist is pretty much on a par with saying that the sky is blue. One can make one's own inferences from there, depending on what one thinks of leftists.Lydia McGrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423567323116960820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-42495232113524708912012-01-09T17:24:39.362-05:002012-01-09T17:24:39.362-05:00"Leiter leaped to Mearsheimer's defense w..."<i>Leiter leaped to Mearsheimer's defense without, it appears, doing his homework very well. In the course of that defense of Mearsheimer he implied that Atzmon is not an anti-semite <b>and that therefore the criticisms of Mearsheimer for endorsing Atzmon are hysterical right-wing smears.</b></i>"<br /><br />That tells me all I need to know about Mr Leiter -- he's a leftist; which means he is either wicked or foolish.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-41840067560485257452012-01-09T16:24:04.887-05:002012-01-09T16:24:04.887-05:00Anon., because Blogger doesn't have a feature ...Anon., because Blogger doesn't have a feature that allows me to edit comments but only to publish or not publish, I had to do some pretty fancy roundabout in order to publish your comment above while cutting Leiter's over-detailed sexual references. So please don't confront me with comments containing those in the future. <br /><br />Leiter's comments both on Freudian psychology and on Marxism certainly make wonderful examples of what's wrong with both. No doubt a more suave Freudian would accuse a critic of straw-manning for presenting what Leiter seriously says as an example of the application of Freudian theory. And the possibility of turning the Freudian's own “technique” (“you just say that because you have this hidden desire to do x, so we don't have to listen to you”) on the Freudian himself is fairly evident.<br /><br />Here's something that strikes me as interesting: I think we have good reason from his behavior in other contexts to believe that Leiter firmly believes in shunning and ostracism. It's not really too hard to guess that he thinks that universities and philosophy departments should purge their ranks of “homophobes,” however good they might be as philosophers. Yet somehow when it comes to anti-semitism, one must use a microscope to find some argument that makes it okay to endorse the likes of Gilad Atzmon. Odd, that.Lydia McGrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423567323116960820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-55035586892084254482012-01-09T16:12:02.188-05:002012-01-09T16:12:02.188-05:00Leiter says in the interview noted above: "Ta...Leiter says in the interview noted above: "Take a wonderful Freudian example, that has since been confirmed by experimental work in psychology. A “reaction formation” is a psychological process in which one forms moral views in reaction to desires that one really has - so, e.g., one becomes a vociferous critic of the immorality of homosexuality and gay marriage precisely because one has strong homosexual urges and desires that one finds threatening. A reaction formation is a “defense mechanism,” a way of trying to protect oneself from desires one doesn’t want to act upon. The typical religious or moralistic homophobe will conceive of himself as “defending family values” and “traditional marriage,” when, in reality, he only mouths these moralistic platitudes because deep down he’d like nothing better than to [engage in sex acts] with another man. If, in fact, it’s the reaction formation that really explains his moral beliefs, then those beliefs can’t possibly be justified, since they arise from a mechanism, reaction formation, that’s inherently unreliable (that is, it’s not a reliable way to figure out what’s morally right or wrong). This bears emphasizing: if what really explains your moral attitudes is that they are a desperate psychological attempt to restrain your own desire for what those attitudes condemn, then why should anyone else take them seriously?"<br /><br />In that case, Leiter must be a right-wing fundamentalist intelligent design advocate. And thus, we should not take him seriously.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-75241099517272147472012-01-09T15:24:40.998-05:002012-01-09T15:24:40.998-05:00Aaron, let's put it this way: If an anti-semit...Aaron, let's put it this way: If an anti-semite is a neuroscientist and writes a valuable book on the subject of, say, brain lesions, then it may be legitimate for a fellow neuroscientist to write a positive blurb for it.<br /><br />Atzmon's book is _about_ his anti-semitic themes. Naturally, in order to see this at length and in detail, one would have to get into the various themes at length and in detail and probably read the whole book. I'm going by quotations and by his other writings in which he defends the book. But it's undeniable that the _subject_ of the book is the Jews and, shall we say, the alleged problems with them and with the way that they see the world and the way that the world sees them.<br /><br />I would say that a book that is all about the Jews and their alleged power and their alleged wrong-doing and so forth that endorses the idea that the blood libel was not unjustified (which I did discuss a bit in the main post) should not receive an endorsement no matter _what_ else is in it. That should be enough that respectable academics don't give it commendatory blurbs. I stand on that. At that point, the book is not good.Lydia McGrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423567323116960820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-79790825140492663582012-01-09T14:40:56.731-05:002012-01-09T14:40:56.731-05:00I didn't read Dershowitz's article. I read...I didn't read Dershowitz's article. I read some stuff about this whole controversy back when it happened, but I've forgotten what I read, so I won't get into all the details.<br /><br />Here's a question, though. Suppose Atzmon is an anti-Semite, however you define that misused term. (I would definitely call him one.) What then? Do you not read his books? Not blurb them, even if they're good? Why not? Lots of anti-Semites have interesting things to say about Jews. If something is interesting and true, that's worthwhile even if the author is an anti-Semite, right?Aaronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-80392097839325341192012-01-09T11:54:18.702-05:002012-01-09T11:54:18.702-05:00Jeff, about Mearsheimer, I can only guess and don&...Jeff, about Mearsheimer, I can only guess and don't know the whole history. By analogy with other people I know who have gotten sucked into similar ideas, I would say that it started with some sort of fashionable anti-Israel sentiment and that from there he just started really hanging out with the wrong crowd. It is a faithful saying: Bad company corrupts good manners.Lydia McGrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423567323116960820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-29419938642762167602012-01-09T11:53:24.759-05:002012-01-09T11:53:24.759-05:00As Dershowitz points out, in the world at large Le...As Dershowitz points out, in the world at large Leiter is fairly obscure. He's a big duck in the smallish pond of American philosophy because he has acquired by means of a combination of energy, ruthlessness, and name recognition the ability to affect negatively the careers of (at least) young and/or untenured philosophers. That's why (some) people listen to what he says. Especially when he says, "I wouldn't do that if I were you." I don't happen to be one of those people.<br /><br />Apropos of the quotation about Marxism, I did find Dershowitz's reference to Leiter as "relatively apolitical" pretty amusing. I gather (judging by the other person featured in the Dershowitz article) that this must simply mean "not running for public office."Lydia McGrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423567323116960820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-85648298811347381382012-01-09T11:36:47.146-05:002012-01-09T11:36:47.146-05:00It was the ID lobby, I swear.It was the ID lobby, I swear.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20704380.post-81770926197085379852012-01-09T11:02:20.562-05:002012-01-09T11:02:20.562-05:00Lydia,
I had the misfortune of reading this inter...Lydia,<br /><br />I had the misfortune of reading this interview with Brian recently:<br /><br />http://www.3ammagazine.com/3am/leiter-reports/ <br /><br />The fact of the matter is that he is a sloppy thinker who is clouded by Marxist clap-trap. This might be my favortie quote:<br /><br />"If 75% of the wealth of the richest one-tenth of 1% of American society were immediately expropriated, there would be no need to discuss cuts to spending that affects the well-being of the vast majority. This is a democracy, why isn’t this a major topic of public debate? Why aren’t the national media full of debates between defenders of the right of the Koch brothers to keep their billions and advocates for seizing the majority of their fortune to meet human needs? One only needs to read Marx to know the answer."<br /><br />Why anyone should care what he thinks about anything serious is beyond me.<br /><br />P.S. Supposedly, Mearsheimer used to do good political science work. What happened to him?!Jeff Singernoreply@blogger.com